On We Made This Political, hosts Lura Forcum and Lauren Hall interview author and former Yale professor William Deresiewicz about his essay “Colleges Maybe Try Teaching” and the link between the decline of liberal education and liberal democracy. They contrast liberal education for citizenship with “servile” or purely utilitarian job training, arguing universities’ incentives—research pressure, credentialing, online instruction, politicization, and activism—undermine teaching and truth-seeking. Deresiewicz distinguishes citizens from activists, emphasizing shared political community, humility, patience, courage, and learning to be wrong, cultivated through seminar-style discussion and especially literature’s ability to build theory of mind and moral complexity. They discuss adult alternatives like The Catherine Project and the Matthew Strother Center for the Examined Life, and end with optimism that curiosity and hunger for deep learning are renewable.
00:00 Moral Maturity and Citizenship
00:37 Podcast and Guest Introduction
02:45 Liberal Democracy Meets Liberal Education
05:26 Servile Versus Liberal Learning
09:37 University Incentives and Research Overload
11:31 Politicization and Academic Conformity
13:52 Activists Versus Citizens
23:31 Virtues Learned in Seminar
27:11 Adult Great Books Alternatives
30:29 Reading Decline and Programs That Work
32:14 Seminar Teaching Magic
34:12 Why Online Learning Fails
36:52 The Real Cost of Small Classes
39:50 Credentialism and Teaching Reform
42:35 Mental Health and Fear of Wrong
45:06 Teaching as Craft Not Content
50:19 Literature Builds Theory of Mind
55:28 Tribalism and Moral Complexity
57:24 Wisdom and Living with Tensions
59:04 Hope and Where to Find Him
01:01:30 Closing Credits and Subscribe
Additional Resources
Bill’s website, where you can contact him, read his essays, and order his books
Social psychologist Michael Inzlicht’s substack essay, “My p-hacking felt like truth”
The website of the American Council on Education, which focuses on effective teaching’s impact on student success
Jennifer Frey on liberal education versus servile education
